Tuesday, February 19, 2008

Where is Turkey heading???

A couple of days ago I read an post on "PajamasMedia" blog Written by a Mr. Eugenides titled "Turkey votes to lift Ban on Headscarf". It has caused an uproar so I hear, among the people. I do not know when this restriction was placed in the Constitution or made law, but I can only imagine that it was a part of the process that followed what Attiturk was trying to accomplish throughout his nation with the outlawing of the Fez, the vail and multiple marriages. Could be wrong, but...He also made a secular nation with religion being removed from government. Now unless the military exerts its pressure to defend the constitution and keep the country secular,???I was really disappointed at the murder of the two publishers recently, where the victims were multilated. This added to the present course leads me to feel this is the start of a long decline after years of progress to enter the modern world, but if that is what the majority of Turks want, It is their country, and they have to live with the results.....I ramble....stay well...

38 comments:

In_spired said...

It appears to me that the issue is not the head scarf, but that of secularism...
a head scarf "smoke screen" obliterating other issues.
Could be that a battle has been initiated that could turn into a war.

cfs said...

TL

Well, this is what a majority of Turks want ... this is not good.

cfs

Tapline said...

inspired, I was not referring to a war,but toward a future Turkey after shedding much of the Islamic trimmings pushed into a government now it appears they are going down that path....stay well....
CFS, Thanks for visiting ....you are so right....time will tell....

durano lawayan a.k.a. brad spit said...

Tapline,

Turkey is doing the reverse of what the more conservative Muslim countries are doing.

In Turkey, wearing a scarf will not get you a government job or political office, you risk being ostracized and ridiculed in public, and taxi drivers would not want you for passengers. There were even occasions where the women wearing scarves had these forcibly taken off by other women, officemates and classmates.

This might be their idea of modernization. ;-) --Durano, done!

Gayle said...

It does indeed appear that they are going backward instead of forward, Tap. Hard to believe that's what the majority wants, but people are extremely hard to understand! I'm much better at understanding animals. :)

Tapline said...

Durano, I do not think it is Turkey's way of modernization. Unless I am all wet about what The father of Modern Turkey tried to do for Turkey which was to pull them out of the dark ages of the Ottoman Empire and combine western ideas into a 7th century lifestyle. Then again, i could be wrong and you could be right but, I think rather than going forward they are returning to pre-Attiturk thinking. We will see what the military is going to do about this change in thinking,,It wouldn't be the first time they intervened and pulled the country back toward democratic thinking....stay well....

Nihat said...

Durano's comment has little to no merit. In fact, incidents where cab drivers refuse service to uncovered women are being reported of late, not the other way around. In my 40+ years of life as a Turk, never have I heard a fasting Muslim molested, injured or killed. The opposite however happens to non-fasting unfortunates pretty much every Ramadan.

Tapline, this ban came as explicitly as it did after the 1980 coup. (As did the explicit ban on Kurdish language, etc. Most present day illiberal ills of Turkey, especially those that penetrated in the law books, can be attributed to that coup.)

Tapline said...

Nihat, Thanks for visiting my blog. Thank also for clarifing some issues that I did not know, but surmised might be happening, which we really do not hear about..I ramble...stay well....

Tapline said...

To all readers of this blogspot....I read all comments prior to my allowing them to appear on this blog. If, for instance a statement is made or an allegation without backup as to the source of the information, I choose not to make them public. Not that they are not true. I will not judge whether the content is true or untrue. Thanks.

MarmiteToasty said...

Hi - I poppped over from Inspired's blob....

Just wanted to say I spent almost 3 week in Maine over the summer, a beautiful place for sure....

And like most things in life, only time will tell, and some things are way beyond our control..

x

Tapline said...

Mar, thanks for stopping by....We like it here except for the occasional blizzard things are great. Winters can get pretty long, but we head up the cost as soon as the ice breaks and the smelts start running up the brooks. there we stay until the frost starts to form. occasionally we come back and I attend my blog and medical supplies replenished...stay well....

cfs said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Tapline said...

CFS, Please disregard my last comments. I have just read that Turkey has launched an attack against the PKK and it is going on as we speak. I know nothing about this situation. I was speaking of the one that took place over a week ago...Not this current episode. I will try to take down my last.....stay well.....

Tapline said...

CFS, I mistakenly erased your comment and now I am copying it again, Sorry
cfs has left a new comment on your post "Where is Turkey heading???":

TL

And in ref to the Turks, I read a good article on the Turks taking care of business in Northern Iraqi territory [against their enemies], but at least they gave heads up to the US military and to the Iraqi government PRIOR to the incursion. Up to this point the US military have kept hands OFF.

cfs

WomanHonorThyself said...

going backwards is an understatement..great read Tap..keep fighting the fight.

American Interests.blog said...

Might also have something to do with Abdullah Gul the President, his wife is less than keen on the notion of secularism and proudly wears hers.

Stay well...

Tapline said...

WHT, Thanks for stopping by....I guess we will just wait and see.....stay well
AI, Thanks for commenting, As you say, It could be but, I feel things are changing toward Islamic fundimentalism, I hope I am wrong. stay well....

Paul Champagne said...

I don't think it is what the majority of Turks want. It is what the very vocal minority want. Islamic fundamentalism is attempting to worm its way into every country.

Tapline said...

Paul,,Thanks for visiting.....missing your blogging!! I only hope you are right. Evidently, some very important changes have happened in Turkey that I was not aware. In the far past, it was the military that kept Turkey secular.... now??? we will see....It has happened in the past 20 or so years and unfortunately, it is like American with its slow chipping away at individual freedomes for many are legalized away by a few, then suddenly we wake up and BAM! asking "What Happened"////stay well.....

mr. brooks said...

hi,
some commentators here, are saying that; this lagistative action "to lift ban on headscarf" is something makes Turkey "go backward" or an action against secular state system in Turkey.

if they really believe in this,
i mean if banning wearing headscarves is "going forward",

why don't they take action for banning headscarves in the universities of their own countries?

Tapline said...

Mr. Brooks, Thanks for your visit and your comments.

mr. brooks said...

please check these links:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elizabeth_Eckford

http://serindusunce.wordpress.com/2008/02/29/iki-resim-arasindaki-fark/

Tapline said...

Mr. Brooks, I checked out the two links you suggested. The first was about a civil rights person. The second is not a correct address or anyway does not connect to any site. I see your side of the post, but to discuss it in the direction you are going is like wizzing against the wind.
I'm sure you are aware of the situation to which I am referring by my questioning "where is Turkey heading" Meaning Secular or Theocatic. There were reasons Kemel Ataturk did what he did to modernize Turkey. That is the point I was trying to make. Not to open up a discussion of Civil Rights or God Given rights as stated to the people of the United States through its Constitution. The other point I was trying to make was Turkey will do what they feel is right for Turkey. I ramble...

crabby old man said...

ENJOYED THE POST SEEMS LIKE IT GOT SEVERAL DIFFERENT OPINIONS,
HAVE A NICE DAY

Average American said...

Tapline: First, let me thank you for finding and commenting on my blog. Second, if I'm not mistaken, until now wearing the headscarve in Turkey was illegal and the change makes it legal. If this is correct, then the way I see it----fine. If the U.S. government told me I COULDN'T wear some piece of clothing I wanted to wear, I'd be pissed off. I do hope however, that this isn't the start of something new, which it very well may be. Time will tell. Latest news from northern Iraq---Turks went home. It's over, at least for now.

We're almost neighbors!! I hail from New Hampshire. Talk/type to you later!

Joe

mr. brooks said...

hi tapline,
thank you for your reply and i really appreciate your aim to understand what's going on in Turkey.

i am aware that our perspectives (or winds) while assessing the issue is totally different.

you have some suspicion about the legislation's being a part of a process that will make Turkey a theocratic state. what i want to show is that; this issue is a part of a struggle for liberty and authocracy between two sides.

lifting of this ban is a part of the requirements to enter the European Union.

this is a matter of freedom not secularism.

you say:
I do not know when this restriction was placed in the Constitution or made law, but I can only imagine that it was a part of the process that followed what Attiturk was trying to accomplish throughout his nation with the outlawing of the Fez, the vail and multiple marriages. Could be wrong, but...

unfortunately it is wrong. here is the reality: entering universities with headscarves has never been banned by constitution or law in Turkey. the restriction is based on an unfair decision of constitutional court of Turkey. (The constitutional court was established after 1960 military coup to defend the official ideology and elitist bureucracy against the people's demands / rights!)

again you say:
There were reasons Kemel Ataturk did what he did to modernize Turkey.

and i say:
Ataturk had never banned wearing headscarf. and his wife was also wearing headscarf.
here is a photo of him with his wife:
http://tr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Resim:LatifeUsakligil_MustafaKemalAtaturk.gif

but for one moment -even it is not true- let's suppose Ataturk had banned wearing headscarves in some public areas...

do you think such a restriction is compatible with human rights? can secularism be a real reason for headscarf ban? my answer is: no, both ideas of Ataturk and secularism are only veils to cover the authocratic intentions of a minority in Turkey and discrimination against religious people.

the right of education is a civil right for everyone. even france, which is the most secular country in the west, doesn't restrict entering universities with any religious wear, including headscarf. this shows that western values share "my wind"; they don't see this issue as a problem / threat for secularism.

http://bp2.blogger.com/_opCFt77SbCw/R8fWLai4M2I/AAAAAAAAAHY/dnNCJjCCd6k/s1600-h/yorumsuz.jpg

http://ekonomiturk.blogspot.com/2008/02/yorumsuz.html

these links also include the same photo in my second link.

Tapline said...

Mr. Brooks, Thank you for the correnction, but as I said, I could be wrong as If indeed the wearing of the headscarf in universities and Government jobs happened after the 1960's coup and not having anything to do with what Kermel Attaturk was tryng to accomplish for Turkey, I stand corrected on that issue. Thanks again for the addresses. I will take a look at them.....stay well...

American Interests.blog said...

Hiya, just drivin' by, door was open thought I'd stop to say hi. Thanks for your comments at my humble abode....

Tapline said...

Otto, Thanks for stopping by! You have an outstanding blog, alsways something of interest. stay well...

cfs said...

TL

Dropping by to say hello, have a productive week in MAINE and stay out of the COLD weather!

cfs

In_spired said...

I, too, (say hello) just to keep in touch...before a very busy day begins. Have a good day...

Tapline said...

CFS, Thanks for stopping by...I'll get busy trying to enter some subject later. Just not up to it now...
Inspired...Thanks for checking in.....I has a post ready to go and someone of the young ones started to use my computer and misplaced my historical data....stay well....

Roger W. Gardner said...

Hi Tapline. Returning your visit to Radarsite.
You have an interesting blog and you tackle some tough issues. I'll be back.
BTW: Is there any place you haven't been? Whew! Good for you!
Best wishes,
rg

Tapline said...

Roger, Thanks for the visit. There are many places I haven't been. I can say, because of the places i have been, It has made me appreciate the U.S. more and I am increasingly concerned at the seemingly total acceptance of any behavior against the office of the Presidency, our country and way of life....stay well....

Shah Alexander said...

Recent rise of Islamic fundamentalism in Turkey is a serious concern. Europeans, particularly continental nations, has been rejecting Turkey too long. This is one of the reasons why Turkish feel disillusioned with their dream to become a Western democracy.

As Turkish modernization models after Japan, I believe Japan should join the US and Britain to endorse Turkish membership to the EU. This is necessary to calm down anti-Western sentiments in Turkey.

It is understandable that they feel discouraged by continual rejection for EU membership.

Tapline said...

Shah, I hear you. Turkey has been trying for quite some time to join, but they keep getting rejected. I understand the US is backing their postion for membership.....Thanks for stoppin by and your comments...stay well....

Ragan Updegraff said...

EU membership in Turkey is tricky business, but the türban is even trickier. It has a long and complicated history, and just because people want to lift the ban does not mean Turkey is becoming less secular or anything of the like. Much of the ado has to do with how secularism is defined in Turkey. A woman in Turkey cannot enter a university in a türban, but she can in the United States. Is Turkey more "secular" than the U.S., or is the U.S. more "free" than Turkey in this regard. I posted extensively on this on my blog back in Feb., and the issue still provdes valuable insight into what is going on inside Turkey.

Tapline said...

Ragan, Thanks for the visit. I read with interest your two part post on Turkey's constant try for membership to the EU. The point I was trying to make in my post and you pointed out the same concern was if the worry of increased theocracy if certain things were allowed to go unchecked by the military, as they seem to be the only ones that oversee the constitution....make sense??????again thanks for stopping by....